Interview — John DeLuca & Rob Marshall
»True love is deeper than appearances«
Since producer John DeLuca and director Rob Marshall revolutionized musical film in the early years of the new millennium, Disney has entrusted them with some of its most complex productions. With their 2023 underwater musical »The Little Mermaid,« both had to face their biggest challenge to date. A conversation with two of Hollywood's most passionate and powerful creatives about love stories with substance, a honeymoon with the ocean king Triton, and the secret skills that enable you to execute one of the biggest film projects of the decade.
24. Mai 2023 — Interview: Katharina Viktoria Weiß, Photography: Frederike van der Straeten
Ever since Disney released the first live-action adaptations of their iconic animated films, fans of the originals have been shuddering in anticipation of each premiere: Sure, the live-action format is very different, but why make »The Jungle Book« so violent or strip »The Lion King« of its famous Elton John soundtrack? But if you are a fan of the fairytale classics, »The Little Mermaid« might just enchant the nostalgic among us on a whole different level:
The new version is a full-blown musical, featuring the hit song »Part of Your World« as the framing siren song, and introducing new melodies and subplots that elegantly elevate the original version while staying true to the fairytale’s core motif: A bittersweet longing — to become an adult (or a human) and to live out a lust for life (or love).
One reason for this may be Disney’s decision to put the project in the hands of two men known for their ability to bring Broadway classics to the big screen. Rob Marshall and John DeLuca met when they were dancers in the vibrant New York theatre scene of the 1980s. The two artists know the Broadway scene by heart and are incredibly passionate about musicals. When they were given the chance to bring »Chicago« to the big screen in 2002, they jumped headlong into an unusual adventure: At the time, musicals were a no-go in Hollywood and big names were reluctant to take part in any on-screen action that involved singing. But with a little help from Renée Zellweger, Catherine Zeta-Jones and Richard Gere, the production won six Oscars and the couple became international stars.
»Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides,« »Into the Woods,« »The Return of Mary Poppins« — Rob Marshall and John DeLuca have now established themselves at Disney when it comes to big movies with a bit of a Broadway background. And they seem to have embraced the zeitgeist when it comes to the sensitive issue of diversity: When Rob Marshall made »Memoirs of a Geisha« in 2005, the cultural backlash was legendary. The film sparked protests and outrage in both Japan and China. The reason was the casting of Chinese actresses in the roles of Japanese geisha. Sections of the Tokyo press found it scandalous that a Western director should indulge in portraying Japanese culture as a feast of opulence, with no focus on conveying Far Eastern social phenomena.
»The Little Mermaid,« on the other hand, has so far been hailed as a tender nod to diversity. There are already videos of POC children staring wide-eyed at the screen when they see a black Ariel. And the star of the show herself is just one of many casting choices that defy the original all-white representation of the animated film. Furthermore, some argue that Ariel changing her body to come closer to her identity can also be read as a story of negotiating trans identity. Even if that is up to feulletoinistic speculation — Disney is not known for accepting a leading role in queer cultural change — the live-action adaptation is fulminantly campy with its over-the-top choreography and solo songs.
»Ariel connects with the substance — that was very important to us.«
MYP Magazine:
Rob and John, in your new picture, »The Little Mermaid,« you’ve combined iconic moments from the animated film with new ideas to enrich the fairy tale world. Which additions are you most proud of?
Rob Marshall:
The quickest answer would have to be Eric’s backstory. We wanted to give him a fuller story and a parallel path to Ariel. In our version, they connect on a deeper level than in the original, which is more superficial. It allows them to really get to know each other and discover common interests. They both love adventure and are not afraid of each other. So, they build a bridge between the two worlds and connect on a much deeper level.
John DeLuca:
We always talk about how it’s very Romeo and Juliet. We are also proud of the new song we gave Prince Eric, »Wild Uncharted Waters.« It aims to make the audience understand what his role is and why she falls in love with him. In our film, Ariel sneaks around the outside of a ship because she is curious about the humans. She hears Eric’s voice long before she sees the beautiful men for herself. Ariel connects with the substance — that was very important to us.
»Christian Andersen struggled all his life to feel heard by those around him.«
MYP Magazine:
If a fairy tale can sometimes be a role model, did you try to create a role model for a healthy relationship here?
John DeLuca:
Friends first!
Rob Marshall:
Yeah, true love is deeper than appearances. Ariel and Eric both feel like they don’t fit in, they feel like outsiders.
John DeLuca:
That comes straight from Hans Christian Andersen, the author of the original fairy tale. He struggled all his life to feel heard by those around him, so »The Little Mermaid« is a reflection of his own life. The love story we’re showing is a break from that pattern — and that’s what makes it so powerful.
»I really identified with the black sheep of the family who has such vengeance in her.«
MYP Magazine:
Another relationship that has become more complex is that between Ursula the Sea Witch and King Triton…
John DeLuca:
I love the aspect that we added to Ursula and Triton’s relationship by making them brother and sister. I really identified with the black sheep of the family who has such vengeance in her. She wants to use anything to get back at him for all the pain he put her through.
»Disney productions allow you to do things that you can’t do anywhere else.«
MYP Magazine:
In London there is even a whole show about it, titled »Unfortunate: The Untold Story of Ursula the Sea Witch« — a critically acclaimed parody musical not intended for children. Can you relate to people who worship the so-called “Disney villain, octo-woman, plus-size icon?”
Rob Marshall:
The character is so fierce and out there. But with Melissa McCarthy we were able to bring more to life than just the scariness of the character, but also the pain that John just described. Melissa gave us every color in the palette. You know, this is a different genre: live action as opposed to animation. Disney productions allow you to do things that you can’t do anywhere else, and the idea of making the beloved characters more three-dimensional and more real was a huge challenge.
John DeLuca:
We wanted to honor what everyone, including ourselves, loves about the original, but we also wanted to give it some of the things that we believe in and enjoy.
»In real nature there is already something very similar to dance and choreography.«
MYP Magazine:
In »The Little Mermaid« we see King Triton and the wonderful world under the sea. But the new film also shows the picturesque coastal life above the water with its Caribbean flair. If you had to choose your honeymoon, where would you go: swimming the oceans with Triton or exploring the vibrant life with Eric?
Rob Marshall:
Oh my gosh, well, I think I’d definitely have to try underwater, because if it was a fairy tale and we could choose anything, I’d just enjoy watching the scenery down there. We watched a lot of »The Blue Planet« documentaries to be inspired by the beauty of our underwater world. It’s unbelievable, you can’t quite believe it’s all happening underwater as it is. It’s like there’s a ballet going on under the sea, which was a great gift for the musical nature of the film.
John DeLuca:
In real nature there is already something very similar to dance and choreography. That’s why Rob was so perfect for it because the perception of movement and angles comes so naturally to him.
Rob Marshall:
Both of our choreographic backgrounds helped a lot with this film. Also because it has its tricky aspects: There is no gravity underwater, so we made the movements fantastic and dreamlike, which is why I would love to explore that world.
»The cartoon doesn’t really tell the audience when or where it takes place.«
MYP Magazine:
John, would you go for the fishtail experience?
John DeLuca:
I’m a real ocean person and I always have to be near or on the water. But no, I don’t need to be under it, snorkelling is not my favourite way to be.
MYP Magazine:
The coastal world has also been given an immense charm and a lot of new flair. What was the artistic decision behind that?
Rob Marshall:
The cartoon doesn’t really tell the audience when or where it takes place. The music has a Caribbean feel to it, so we set it in the Caribbean. And then the original story was written in the 1830s, so that’s the time period we chose.
»How do you make an underwater musical? Only with a lot of preparation.«
MYP Magazine:
Let’s take a trip into your working day: What are the most unusual daily tasks for a producer and director of your stature?
Rob Marshall:
How do you make an underwater musical? Only with a lot of preparation. You start with storyboards because you have to imagine what it could be, and that evolves into something called previsualization, which is like a mini movie. This is important so that we understand how everyone would move and how the camera would move. And then we had to communicate all that to our stunt team and camera team.
»Our film was created like a mosaic.«
MYP Magazine:
Filming underwater was not an option, so you had to use aerial stunts to get shots that show the »no gravity« aspect of the underwater world. How difficult was that?
John DeLuca:
Each actor was in an apparatus and was supported by ten crew members who moved them around the air in front of a blue screen. The choreography had to be filmed in very small pieces. To make this work, we had to go through an incredibly long rehearsal process. First, we worked with the actors to make sure they understood every part of the story and the relationships between the characters…
Rob Marshall:
… and then we pushed them into the air before we actually started to put it together. Our film was created like a mosaic.
»We’re a team when it comes to directing.«
MYP Magazine:
John, while the artistic process itself was a challenge, did your duties as producer keep you busy putting out little fires in the background?
Rob Marshall:
Let me speak for John, he’s not in the background at all, he’s with me every second. Every frame of this film was created with John. We’re a team when it comes to directing.
John DeLuca:
Yeah, but in addition to that, we also produce. So, we have to deal with the actors and the agents and keep it all going. We are the custodians of the most important thing: the product. Getting it done on time and on budget is a very responsible job.
Rob Marshall:
All the while keeping the creative aspect at the core of it all. So, you’re really making sure you’re telling a story because sometimes that gets forgotten. And we’ve been doing it together for a long time — we started working together on »Chicago« 20 years ago.
MYP Magazine:
The production went on to win six Oscars — but at that time musicals were not accepted on screen at all…
John DeLuca:
Which meant there was no pressure at all because we thought nobody was going to see it anyway.
Rob Marshall:
As you can guess: We deeply believe in the musical genre.
»We are all working together to create something special. And that comes from checking your ego at the door.«
MYP Magazine:
As you mentioned, there’s the creative part and the drive to tell amazing stories, but there’s also this huge Disney machine that involves a lot of money, expertise, and technology at the speed of culture. What are the most important skills to have in your respective professions?
John DeLuca:
As the maestro of this huge endeavor, you need all of those skills. You can’t just be a creative genius, you can’t just be a very intelligent, educated person, you can’t just be personable and know how to deal with every actor and make them feel special. You also need to have the ability to talk to the creative team and make them feel special and part of it. Rob has a very unique talent for combining all of those skills. I honestly think that nobody else on the planet could have done this film.
Rob Marshall:
This is our fourth film in a row with Disney. We feel very respected by them and they trust us implicitly. So, there is this unconditional support. John and I — and so many other talented people — are deeply connected. I really do see it as a collaboration — but I am flattered that you see it differently. (looks lovingly at John) The way I see it: We are all working together to create something special. And that comes from checking your ego at the door because the most important thing in musicals is perfect cooperation. Whether it’s on stage or on film: The best idea in the room has to win.
John DeLuca:
But you get the last word, be honest! (both laugh) I had great ideas that did not get picked.
Rob Marshall:
Sure, ideas have to fit a vision. And luckily, I have the best and most understanding team in the world.
